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Geoffrey McElwaine
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 13:02 - Edited by: Geoffrey McElwaine
It’s probably ( certainly, say my family ! ) my age making me grumpy, but at present I am really struggling to maintain my interest in Woophy.
Digital photography is great ! It has enabled folk to take pictures who, in analogue days, might have regarded photography as too complicated.
It is, however, subject to the disadvantage that many of these new photographers have limited understanding of the rules governing good picture-making or, indeed, of the need for these rules.
This has increasingly been brought home to me recently, while using Woophy’s useful “ Search ” facility to look through pictures being uploaded. It may well be my age, but it seemed, to me, that I was drowning in a flood of mediocrity. Again and again, I wanted to shout “ FILL THE FRAME ”, “ WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SHOW ME ? ”, etc. at my computer screen. Page after page seemed, to my jaundiced eye, to be full of poorly composed, technically inept, pictures. I started to imagine myself as a gold-prospector during the Gold Rush, panning through masses of dross in hope of encountering a few flecks of gold. I simply do not have sufficient energy for this !
Another site, unto which I also upload my pictures, sets out clear Guidance on what may, and may not, be uploaded -
“ Photos that you took, with minimal photoshopping or other digital alteration (adjusting color and sharpness is fine).
Not all your photos - just your best photos. Up to 10 a day. ”
Please, please, Joris and co., help me ! Will you seriously consider introducing something similar for Woophy ?
Regards
Geoff. ( Geoffrey McElwaine )
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pansa
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 13:15 - Edited by: pansa
Maybe I share your age problem Geoffrey, but I totally agree with your pledge to Joris. I have the same problem going through page after page with middle of the road pxs to find the little hidden gem. We have had this discussion before on Woophy where there turned out to be a clear difference in opinion between the "democrats" that want to allow everything and the people that want more quality and less quantity. Of course "quality" and "appreciation" of a px is highly subjective as I could learn recently from my photo magazine where the editors were appraising pages full of unsharp, grainy and uninteresting B&W pxs of a shadow or half a leg, an upside down bucket, etc. However, IMO there are some basic rules that are applicable. So Joris please........
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M. Knegt
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 13:24 - Edited by: M. Knegt
First I like to note that I'm no great photographer myself. And that I probably don't know much of these "rules", but I'm here to learn them and become a better photographer!
And I do agree with Mr. McElwaine (It's not your age!  ), especially the amount of uploading. For example, this weekend I went to Germany and made about 30 pictures of wich I uploaded 2 (!). I look carefully at the pictures I take and the rest just weren't good or interesting enough. More people should do this. One way to achieving this could be an uploading limit!
Sometimes you see series of (vacantion) 20 very mediocre pictures of the same object!
We can't be al good photographers but everyone can see that uploading a photo that is out of focus or is overexposed doesen't belong in ANY photosite.
There is something we all can do about this though and that is not only commenting the most beautifull pictures we see but also the mediocre ones that could be better. But at this time with days with more then 600 pictures being uploaded is a hell of a task!
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Aline
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 13:51
A well-known subject, Geoffrey. As Pansa said, we already had several times this discussion.
You are probably right, and I often share your feeling.
But where does come from the issue ?
- In the Woophy's rules, I agree with you.
But the choice of Woophy allowing unlimited posts the same days is the Joris' choice. His interest is not necessarily the same as us.
If he want to cover the earth of pictures, and catch large public as Panoramio does, we have to accept this objective.
- But in my mind, we could maintain quality ourself. And when I say "we", I speak about people posting regularly on Woophy and visiting the forums.
Why we never write constructive critics ? even some caustic ?
Why we encourage average or bad photographers giving them excellent rates, just because they are known to give the same ?
Why we upload amounts pictures of the same series, when only 3 or 4 would be sufficient ?
I don't deny the right to someone to post mediocre or ordinary pictures. but it is stupid to acclaim them with drifts of excellent comments. IT doesn't help, exept for our collection of good rates in return.
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zerega
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 14:11 - Edited by: zerega
Geoffrey, you raised a matter that in my opinion is critical to the future of woophy.
Just think from a "client's" perspective (client: casual or new visitor of woophy). He/she discovers woophy, tries out the map at points interesting to his/her and browses through some of the images. Since the map and its functions are really cool, this will be an excellent first impression.
Then, browsing the images. If the images are good, he/she will continue, try out more cities and maybe return or maybe even register, upload and become an active part of woophy.
Or he/she comes across a very long series of those photos Geoffrey described and ... will be pissed off after a dozen and probably never return. Remember, new or casual visitors are the vast mayority of visitors and not (yet) drawn into the social side of woophy, where there may be more tolerance about a series of crap images. I suspect woophy can't thrive on a mere 100 people that make up the social core of the site.
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neil baxter
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 16:36
I totaly agree with your sentiments about the quality of most of the shots uploaded geoff, to me the answer lies in what Aline says about being critical.Constructive criticism should be encouraged (enforced ) & if it upsets people so be it.Nivad had the courage to criticise he recieved a fair ammount himself which hasn,t seemed to detered him ,perhaps if we had the balls to do the same it may improve things. p.s i realise im as guilty as most writing nice shot when realy it should read poor shot.
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Jan Hemels
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 16:39 - Edited by: Jan Hemels
Geoffrey I do share your concern wholeheartedly. I did comment a few critical notes to tilted horizons and empty foregrounds to day, but I feel like someone calling in the desert (Dutch Proverb) More I do not dare to do because too much criticism can cost you dearly as I discovered. In another thread I already favoured the idea of a small annual fee, even 5 euro´s is enough to prevent people from using Woophy as a free album site as we can see these summer months. A fall in quantity might well attract more quality and in every field in my life I always favoured quality to quantity. Your suggestion of a maximum number per day I think is less effective as they will spread then throughout the week. But it is a lot better than doing nothing!
What is the use of 27ooo+ users as only 270 regularly update and comment?? At this very moment at 4.30PM there are only 3 members on line! Look at the the last update date of most users, most have done nothing this year! Are advertisers so ignorant that they do not look through this?
I regularly asked on this forum what the official policy of Woophy is on this matter and what the plans are for the future. Maybe we can learn something in Kampen or else make a statement there! It is no matter of life and death but going on like this I am afraid is a dead end street and I would regret that very much! Almost all serious Woophy photographers also publicize on or visit other sites. That they do come back now and then is because Woophy is so fine surveyable and so a well organized community. They mostly restrict themselves howvever to the forum and contests and that is very regrettable!
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ortho158
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 16:55
I suppose that you are right, Aline, when you say that Joris' objective is not the same as ours. But "maintaining quality among us" won't solve the issue raised by Geoffrey: we will continue to be flooded with poor/identical pictures from those people who do not care about receiving critiques.
As Joris is decidedly opposed to an upload limit, may I suggest that Woophy implements something that all photo sites have: the possibility to display the best pics of the last day/month/year/ever. At least, it would simplify the search for interesting pics.
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joopvandijk
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 17:03
Geoffrey, you're not to old, searching trough the many placed pictures is a problem.
It takes lot's of time, and it's not easy to find the interesting ones.
Don't forget that most photographers are not professional, me included.
The advantage op woophy, comparing with other photo sites, is the easy start.
When you visit woophy the first time, you don't get the impression that only the profs are welcome.
Perhaps a small fee would do the job.
for the non paying members a portfolio of maximum 100 pictures, and a uploading possibility of not more than 3 a day.
For the paying members unlimited uploading and portfolio possibillities.
Jan Hemels
Jan you're very right about the woophy day.
Maybe beside all the fun that we will have this day, we could also start a discussion: how to make woophy better
Perhaps the 10-12 people present there will make a statement and together we'll come with some serious suggestions.
Imo, the search option should be extended with: most comments.
Pictures with lots of comments are most of te time the better pictures.
Finding the best pictures in the great amount that's placed evey day is difficult, perhaps we should open a forum topic with the title: the best picture that was placed today.
If you see a great picture, put it in that topic.
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Dieuwertje
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 17:28
No Geoff, you are not to old for woophy ! I just thought the same last week, when I saw a lot of bad vacation pict. But I ignored them and picked just the good ones, Believe me there are many good photo's still. When I have the idea that someone is posting them seriously, I give an advice if nessesary. I give also lower rates at bad pictures, and I hope that when I post a bad photo, on will give me a good advice too.
Joop, great idea 
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3.1416
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 18:13 - Edited by: 3.1416
Geoff first of all the age only add experience at the photography, this topic is interesting and I agree with some members have written before, and maybe the interests of the owner of this site and the members are different. About the constructive comments I think the circumstances have not been generated to construct a good environment in this page, the last member who has tried to give critical commentaries was NIVAD and received complains and sarcastic commentaries from some members of the woophy many of them of the CLUB so closed that they vote for each other and share commentaries like "nice" for their photographies.
http://www.woophy.com/forum/9_3456_0.html
And Geoff I fully agree with you in the relation quantity-quality but we must think that this one is a free opened site for those who do not have any idea of photography and maybe they want to learn sharing his bad images and they wish some constructive critiques.
And I think you are also rude in commentaries about composition or rules followed by photography. Some of your pictures are irrelevant to me as well, maybe because I dont know the history of your work or I dont find your topics interesting; or we dont share the same taste, all this can happen. I say this with all respect.
Best regards Sergio.
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giz
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 19:40
even in the quantity sometimes gems can be found and who are we to deny others the pleasure? It is all about sharing and enjoying. sometimes I like pictures with no comment at all and at the same time sometimes I am amazed how many comments in my eyes a mediocre picture has got.
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Nivad
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 21:18
Geoff you aren't mentioning a new problem if it has to be considered a problem altogether in the first place.
It is true that woophy is tempting for casual visitors to upload a whole bunch of what can be considered bad pictures since it is limtiless and free to do soon woophy. At the same time that is woophy's strength and weakness.
But do we have to bother the amount of pictures uploaded;
We can simply change our own personal policy about the way we choose browse around here. It doesn't have to be our target to look at every single uploaded picture. At least it isn't mine.
Within woophy there are several mechanics to be selective at one or another; only look at pictures of certain region (or several region), a certain categorie, a certain member etc. Then if you have time left you might considerscrolling through the last uploaded pictures.
Besides on this very forum there are at least three threads wich are interesting because they offer each member to show us a picture he or she appreciates: photo ABC and photo snake and...
...of course "your best picture of the month - unofficial contest". This is one I really appriciate on this matter just because it IS about quality. everyone gets obliged to think about the quality of their pictures and choose one out of it. And I must say with succes, for me it isn't about the contest but it presents every month a nice portfolio of relatively good pictures.
So in the end there is no one who says that you have to look at all pictures...
And if it might happen to you that you encounter a rather bad picture, or any picture with flaws you can't ignore or are bothered with, mention them in your comment no need to be afraid of anything, no one is going to bite, some may even appreciate it  And if you think writing such long comments is to time-consuming at least give a honest rating, if I'm not mistaken the rating system was implemented to level the picture of a certain place and of a certain photographer. (so I agree with Aline)
But for those who still are bothered with this unlimited uploaded, it might be interesting to read my proposal of a year ago, I'm still in favor of such an arrangement although it sounds a little complicated.
Grtz
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Nathan Servi
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 22:10
I feel sympathetic to the first post by Geoffrey.
I personally started feeling this way long time ago, as I probably have a lower level of patience.
I miss some of you a whole lot, but aparts from the amazing community, I have struggled to click on woophy recently. To the point that I feel guilty of writing here now, not having shown my face for so long.
I would be happy to find better search methods, but I am not sure I am in the position of asking for it!
A big hug to all of you,
Nathan
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Jan Hemels
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 22:55 - Edited by: Jan Hemels
1100 pics uploaded to-day of which 274 by one single member and almost 200 by another. I saw them all and commented around 75 - of which about 10 constructively critical. I also saw all other pics the last six months or so except for the holiday period
Sergio, do you consider me a member of this club you refer to so negatively?
The average member cannot spend the time I do and with me a few dozen aficionados. Are we to blame because we comment each others pics first?
In this load it is impossible to find the way. Moreover it is very frustrating commenting other members pictures and not receive any comments from her or him in return. Commenting cannot be a one sided affair. How many did you comment this week?
The result of this all is what you find on woophy. I am open for any constructive solution to improve the quality of OUR site.
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chasamatazz
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 22:58 - Edited by: chasamatazz
You are right (not about being too old... probably), but not everyone can take a great photo all the time. Woophy is about sharing images of the world you wouldn't normally see, and that isn't about artistic impression, great angles and all that stuff. Sometimes it's the mundane and ordinary which needs to be represented. And I speak for myself when I remind you that we are all amateurs.
However, maybe there should be some sort of rule to do with photos which generates no interest i.e. no comments or ratings after a period of time. But I don't know what it would be, which is why I don't have my own photo website.
As for photoshopping stuff, well that's a whole different ballgame. How do you draw a limit on what is "minimal digital alteration", how much "adjusting of color and sharpness" is considered fine, and what is too much?
And I don't think shouting at the computer will help. As you say, there is an abundance of photos to look through, too many for mere mortals, so just continue from the ones that frustrate you, until you find ones that excite you.
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3.1416
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 23:28
@dear Jan Hemels.
I believe that it does not matter too much if I consider it to be a part of the club or not, all the members have absolute freedom of forming his own clubs or of voting for 5 for a bad photo, the system allows it.
What I consider to be a negative of the club is that he rates for the person and not to the photo, examples there are hundreds .... but since I have said all they are free to do what they wish, me included, of speaking negatively about this club.
best regards...Sergio
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M. Knegt
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 23:35
But for those who still are bothered with this unlimited uploaded, it might be interesting to read my proposal of a year ago, I'm still in favor of such an arrangement although it sounds a little complicated.
I think this is a great idea! Did Joris ever looked into this or gave his oppinion?
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Jan Hemels
Member
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# Posted: 12 Aug 08 23:37
Sergio, It is pretty clear to me that people are free to do what they like in a community like ours. I tried to explain where the origin lies of the fact that people look for each other first.
I asked you what you do to improve this? Do not you have any suggestion at all?
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Jono
Member
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# Posted: 13 Aug 08 07:10
Just wanted to add my '2 cents worth' to this discussion
I'm pretty new to photography, to be honest I've only got seriously into it this year after finally getting myself a decent DSLR so I'm probably one of the offenders that you mention Geoff for uploading "poorly composed and/or technically inept pictures".
To this end I absolutely rely on getting feedback from people such as yourselves with significantly more experience than myself. If I upload a photo thats Crap then I'd like to know and get some suggestions on how it could be better. There is a current culture that you either rate a photo 4, 5 or not at all. (So basically at the moment if I have a photo with no comments I assume I did something wrong, but I have no idea what it is).
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